Forum:Empty or no text?
(RE: http://nitrome.wikia.com/wiki/Flipside?diff=135819&oldid=124191 and http://nitrome.wikia.com/wiki/Flipside?diff=135825&oldid=135823) Anonymoustyd is right. Template:Empty says, "This section is empty", not "This section has no text." So when a video is on the section, it is partially filled. We could adjust the template so that it says, "This section has no text", or just omit Template:Empty from a section that has a video in it and replace it with Template:Incomplete. I myself don't think it looks aesthetically pleasing to have an excess of template cluttering the page. When you see the section with no text on it, doesn't it mean that the section itself has no text and therefore needs editing? Does there really need to be a template that says that? 03:25, August 18, 2013 (UTC) : I couldn't agree more with you, RSK. I do believe that it is good to have a reminder for readers to know they should edit, however, as you pointed out, the articles do not look good anymore if there is an overwhelming amount of templates in the page. Another solution would be creating another template that says there is no text. : What I also think about this, is that on the games that have got walkthroughs (mostly tend to be platform games), there should simply be no text and only a video, as I believe it is more interesting to watch yourself how to complete the level and avoid reading a bunch of paragraphs, that can result confusing. And for the games where the levels can be seen without scrolling anything, such as Silly Sausage, Plunger and Super Stock Take (for example), take screen captures of the levels and explain below how to beat them. For games where the levels are scrolled, the visual aid would be the video already, and that would at the same time explain the walkthrough. For not scrolled games, the visual aid would be the image and the text explains how to beat the levels. And then, everything is complete! What do you think about this? 03:38, August 18, 2013 (UTC) ::I think that there should be some amount of text within level sections (including videos), since videos are short in width and leave empty gaps on either side when centred. I do agree that when it comes to a fully guided video walkthrough, the text does not need to be overly descriptive as the video is the one doing the explaining (in detail) of what the player specifically needs to do. That being said, I wouldn't just leave text out of all level sections. A short introduction as to the overall scope of the level, maybe some significant things that pop up, should be good enough. That way, say, if someone were to scroll through a list of levels to find the one they want, they can read a quick overview of what the level is and see if it is the right one without having to play through each video individually to find the one they want. 03:58, August 18, 2013 (UTC) :::Yes, it's often difficult to fully explain how to complete a level, especially when it is a long level or one with multiple ways to complete it. The video is mainly for a walkthrough of the level, while the text is just an overview, as you said. -- 04:08, August 18, 2013 (UTC) ::::I think we should have a template that just states there is no text. Are there any examples of overly descriptive text walkthroughs? I don't think there would be any. Text walkthroughs can be helpful for those who don't want to watch the video. Also, bear in mind that Youtube is blocked in certain countries. This means that the country it is blocked in, you can't access Youtube and playing a video brings up an error. ::::Thus, unless we want to upload videos to Vimeo or some other hosting site, we should still use text walkthroughs - text walkthrough's cater to those who can't watch Youtube, and to those who don't/can't watch the video (for reasons other than Youtube being blocked). Also, text walkthroughs would be important to the Nitrome Wiki, as it's only on here that you can find them. My source for Youtube being blocked: Wikipedia - Censorship of Youtube. -- 12:44, August 18, 2013 (UTC) :::::Overly descriptive like Fat Cat#Stage 1. I can't see that system working for every stage of Fat Cat. Secondly, would text walkthroughs even be helpful to those in countries where YouTube is blocked? Many of these happen to be where English isn't a primary language, rendering this English wiki almost entirely useless. An electronic translator doesn't always help. :::::Embedding walkthroughs from other video hosting sites isn't a bad idea. This could be useful if, say, the video was removed from YouTube or a computer was just stubborn enough to only load Vimeo videos and nothing else. It could be done with each video in a tabber. I don't know if it works with Template:Vid, though. 16:59, August 18, 2013 (UTC) (reset indent) Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 1) Nitrome Wiki is not the only place in the entire universe you can find text walkthroughs 2) the purpose of this discussion was if Template:Empty was really necessary for sections with a video in them or for an empty section itself. 17:02, August 18, 2013 (UTC) :Right, as for the "no text" issue, perhaps could we create a sub-template such as Template:Empty/text, which would be exactly the same as the empty template, except it would say "This section contains no text. You can help Nitrome Wiki by adding info." Or we could just create another template. Either way, I agree that the empty template should only be placed when there is no content at all in a section. -- 18:24, August 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Oops - I forgot we were discussing Template Empty. I didn't find Fat Cat level 1 overly descriptive, however, I did find that it didn't describe enough what you had to do in the level (such as what to destroy, tips), however, I think this would have been unneeded considering how simple the level is. I agree with Ayernam - Template:Empty/Text sounds good. -- 20:22, August 18, 2013 (UTC) :::What would Template:Empty be for, then? Having a template just to say there's no text in a section seems redundant. What about one template at the top of the page, or just omitting the template overall? 03:48, August 25, 2013 (UTC) ::::Template:Empty would only be used when there is no content in a section (e.g. a video, picture, etc.). If we just removed the template, then editors might assume that a text walkthrough is not needed for that level. -- 16:49, August 25, 2013 (UTC) :::::I think if some of the more active users added some text every time they put in a video walkthrough, then others would get the idea. It could be a brief description, nothing fancy. Too many empty templates on a page aren't exactly aesthetically pleasing, so to speak. 02:54, November 17, 2013 (UTC) (reset indent) An off tangent note, quote NOBODY: I didn't find Fat Cat level 1 overly descriptive, however, I did find that it didn't describe enough what you had to do in the level (such as what to destroy, tips), '' It is impossible, for most level sections, to write a walkthrough in this manner without being subjective. Take Fat Cat, for example. You don't ''have to destroy all the enemies; you can destroy just enough to save the cat. Of course, it would be ideal to kill all the enemies if you want a higher score, but that doesn't mean much in terms of game completion. Tips are also usually subjected to one's opinion, which, as you know, doesn't belong on an article. 02:54, November 17, 2013 (UTC) :That's a good point - text walkthroughs are often open to opinion in terms of how to complete a level. In fact, in many games, the levels are very straightforward. Start at a certain point, get to the end point, and you're done. Confused about how to get past certain obstacles? That's what the video walkthrough is for. I think we should outline the basic structure of all the levels of a game in the gameplay section, then let the video walkthoughs explain the specifics. I was never really keen on explaining every aspect of a level in a text walkthrough anyway, and I don't think most readers will appreciate it as well. -- 16:11, November 17, 2013 (UTC) ::Yes, explaining every aspect of a level isn't good in a text walkthrough. However, I would expect a text walkthrough to actually explain what to do to complete a level, such as saying "jump over this, then this, then shoot this". For example, if explaining the first four targets of a the Mercenary challenge using the method I am talking about, I would write "The player has to jump over he box in front of them, duck, shoot, get up, jump over the box again, then walk off the platform. ::After impacting the floor, they turn around and fire, then turn back, duck, then fire until they smash target three." Considering RSK's suggestion of placing some text, wouldn't that just fill up sections with Template:Incomplete instead of Template:Empty? Also, considering Ayernam's suggestion, yes, levels are rather straightforward. However, I don't think certain level walkthroughs are open to opinion, as usually, whatever text walkthrough is given is usually the easiest way to complete a level, and there are alternate methods of completing a level, but they are likely not as efficient as the current complete text walkthrough given in an article. ::Yes, for an obstacle that is difficult to get past, they could look at the video walkthrough, but wouldn't this section be covered by the text walkthrough?-- 00:09, November 18, 2013 (UTC) :::Okay, I see what you mean. How about instead of having incomplete and/or empty templates everywhere, we just leave text walkthrough sections blank by default, and have the basic level outline in the gameplay section. This can stay the same for games where all the levels are pretty much straightforward, and don't need explaining beyond the video. However, for more complicated games like, as NOBODY mentioned, Test Subject Complete, we can write more specific instructions for levels that deviate from their otherwise straightforward nature. That way, readers won't have to read through several paragraphs of dry descriptions to get to how to solve the main challenges of a level. -- 00:29, November 18, 2013 (UTC) ::::Text walkthroughs are still helpful, and I find that level sections look incomplete with just a video. I think some previous text walkthroughs may be way too descriptive, and they can be easily simplified, to reduce the amount of paragraphs. Walkthroughs are meant to provide a guide on how to complete a level, although it may already be apparent where to go, the walkthrough tells the reader how to get there, and usually how to get around enemies, hazards, etc.. Although they can refer to the video if they are stuck on something, if a walkthrough is just about how to get from start to finish without instruction on how to pass anything, wouldn't that not really be a walkthrough? Sure, it walks them through the level, but only telling them to go down a set path which is already apparent, and not how to get past difficult things. Also, whether a game shouldn't have a walkthrough is kind of dependent on is genre. Puzzle games like Icebreaker, Super Stock Take, and Powerup I think are fine to have text walkthroughs, as the walkthroughs never become really long and are easy to right. Furthermore, most people would likely be able to more quickly find out what to do by reading the walkthrough than watching a video. However, there are some oddball games which I think need walkthroughs, as these would help progression in the the game. Nanobots for instance, waves of enemies are made up of rather linear movements which can usually be beaten by certain movements of the player. -- 04:46, November 18, 2013 (UTC) :There's the problem, NOBODY. What's difficult to you may not be difficult for me or difficult for others. That's why walkthroughs are biased in that sort of sense. Level sections need to, at their core, stick to the facts about the level pathway, which is universally agreeable. I would not expect a walkthrough from a wiki article at all because it can never provide enough of what all users want out of it. Sure, in the past, I have outlined some tips that can allow the playable character to avoid hazards, but even then, the focus is on remaining neutral and sticking to the facts. If the user is having a problem with passing a level, we do have to remember that there is a Nitrome discussion forum that we haven't encouraged other users to move to. We cannot expect this information from reading a wiki article; it is disruptive to neutral point of view. :And regarding incomplete level sections: since level sections are unified under one large "Levels" section, the incomplete template could be placed underneath the "Levels" section, since all subsections are part of this one big section, and it implies that this whole section is incomplete. Specifying which ones...I don't think that is really needed, unless a lot of them are "complete" and maybe one or two sections here and there have incomplete information. Then again, incomplete sections also have some bias, based on the potential of information to be added and not added. And let's be honest, no one's really been helping out with filling in incomplete or empty sections even with the templates on every single section. 06:16, November 18, 2013 (UTC)